Author Topic: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides  (Read 14672 times)

ProjectAbby

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Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« on: July 16, 2008, 02:25:27 AM »
Hey guys, so after taking apart the cylinder heads and cleaning it, I noticed the area around the valve guides are cracked.  This is towards the top part on all of them.  What's the main cause of this?  Is it something I can easily replace?

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 04:46:43 AM »
Obviously those valve guides need to be replaced, and while the machine shop is doing that, ask them if there is a clearance issue with your heads.  Something is not within tolerance here. 

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 04:42:38 PM »
i could be wrong im not a machinist  but it looks like the guides were replaced and the cracks are whats left of the old guides as the pressed the new ones in though the buttom

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 09:01:34 PM »
After looking at those valve guides carefully, it appears that they have been sleeved.  Here is some reading you need to read to see if this is what you have from a previous owner, and it was a botched re-sleeving. 
VALVE GUIDE LINERS

Boring out the original guides and installing thin wall bronze liners to restore proper clearances is not only a fast and economical guide repair option, it also provides the benefits of a phosphor/bronze guide surface (better lubricity, scuff resistance and wear characteristics than cast iron).

Though liners are most often used to repair integral guides in cast iron heads, they are also a very effective way to repair replaceable guides in cast iron or aluminum heads, which saves time and eliminates the risks associated with driving out the old guides and pressing in new ones.

Liners also save the cost of having to replace the valves. If the original valves are not worn, standard sized liners can be used to restore the inside diameter dimensions of the guides. If the valves are worn, the stems can be turned down .0050 in. to accommodate liners with slightly undersized inside diameters.

Jerry Qualiana, vice president of aftermarket sales at K-Line Industries, Holland, MI, says their K-Line Bronze Bullet Guide Liner system has been authorized by Ford Motor Company and meets Ford Q-1 quality standards.

According to Qualiana, the Bronze Bullet Guide Liner design is an enhanced design over previous bronze liners, incorporating an "Interrupted Spiral" which assists in retaining oil in the guide, while eliminating oil flow through the guide. In conjunction with the previously mentioned lubricity characteristics of phosphor bronze, Bronze Bullet Guide Liners offer improved guide life in today's oil starved valve guide environment. Also, Qualiana points out that because of the lubricity in the phosphor bronze, K-Line has always advocated valve to stem clearance at the low side of the manufacturer recommended specifications.

Mike McElmurry, vice president of production at Sequal Corp.,Willow Springs, MO, says regarding K-Line's Bronze Bullet Guide Liner, "Because the final size is so easy to control, we have been able to tighten all of our valve to guide tolerances by at least .001 inch. This, along with the liner's ability to resist

galling has reduced our warranty claims by as much as 75% "I have looked at other methods of valve guide repair, .015 inch overised valves, new and rechromed, .003 in undersize valves with replacement cast iron guides, but have found nothing that was cheaper to use than K-Line with .003 in. undersize valves. We grind our own valves and enjoy over $0.80 per guide savings over any of the combinations listed above."

The key to using the Bronze Bullet Guide Liners successfully is proper installation. Qualiana says if the original guides are not worn more than .030 in. or cracked, they can be lined. Otherwise, replacement would be recommended.

Installation of the Bronze Bullet Guide Liners is a five step process:




1. First, the old guides have to be bored out to accept the liners. Qualiana recommends using a KL1725CB Black Beauty carbide reamer in an air drill with a no load speed of 2100 to 3000 rpm. K-Line's KL9900 Boring Fixture has centering pilots that center the reamer off the valve seat (which maintains seat concentricity), and an air clamping fixture that holds the head securely in place while the guides are being bored. The guides should be bored dry with no lubricant, using steady consistent pressure.

Once the guides have been bored out, they should be blown out and checked with a go-no go gauge to make sure they are the proper size.

2. The liners should then be pressed in from the top side of the head using an air hammer and K-Line's Auto Installer tool. The liners go in with the tapered side facing the guide hole. The liners are then driven in flush with the top of the guide boss.




3. Next, the liners are sized. Any of three different techniques may be used: roller burnishing (use with lubrication), broaching (driving a calibrated ball through the liner with an air hammer), or using K-Line's ball broach tool in an air hammer.

Sizing the liners is a critical step because it accomplishes two things: it provides the proper clearances between valve stem and liner for proper lubrication and oil control, and it locks the liner in place so it will transfer heat efficiently to the surrounding metal for proper valve cooling. Bronze actually conducts heat more efficiently than cast iron, but requires a tight fit and metal-to-metal contact with the surrounding guide for good heat transfer. If the liner isnot sized properly, it may cause the valve to run hot, or worse yet, come loose.




4. After the liners have been sized, turn the head over an trim the liner to length. The liner should be cut flush with the guide boss in the port. This step is not necessary if precut liners are being used that have the correct length for the application.

5. The final step is to Flex Hone the liner after any seat work that is necessary has been completed. The Flex honing step removes any burrs left from trimming the liner to length, and leaves a nice crosshatch finish that improves oil retention. One pass in and out is all that is recommended to hone the liner. A flexible nylon brush should then be passed through the liner to clean the hole.

Though the just described procedure sounds more complicated than it really is, a typical four cylinder or V8 can be relined in six to seven minutes says Qualiana. Also, the majority of the detailed steps listed regarding cleanliness and accuracy in the guide area are requirements no matter which method of guide repair the rebuilder chooses.

Ron Bernstein, vice president of Precision Engine Parts in Las Vegas, NV, says his company sells a solid one-piece smooth bore .030 in. oversize phosphor bronze valve guide liner.

"Ours is not a split design, so all you do is ream out the guide and press it in. You do not have to broach it afterwards because the liner is installed with an interference press fit of about .001 to .0015 inch. This saves a step and prevents the liner from falling out. But the guide must be bored to exact dimensions, which means you have to use the proper boring tool and replace it when it becomes worn.

"Our liner restores the guide back to stock dimensions so a reclaimed or new valve can be installed. It is a very popular liner with Mexican rebuilders," said Bernstein.

Ertel Manufacturing Corp. in Indianapolis, IN, makes cast iron liners as well as guides. Engineer Bob Leszcynski says many people have a love/hate relationship with bronze liners. "They love the fact that anybody with a Black & Decker hand drill can install the liners, but they hate the fact that if they are not installed correctly the head will come back with loose or worn liners.

"We say rebuilders should use always some type of piloted installation equipment that centers off the valve seat so the liner will be centered properly in the guide. With a hand drill and no fixturing, you have no control. Lean this way or that way on the drill a little bit and your hole will be off.

"We also say you must always broach the liners once they have been installed to seat them, which is something we also require for our cast iron liners. Most people do not think cast iron will stretch, but it does when you broach the liner to seat it."

Leszcynski said cast iron liners cost about the same as bronze liners. "Bronze has good anti-seize properties and is popular for that reason. But cast iron wears better and performs more like an integral valve guide in a cast iron head. Cast iron is also a good replacement choice for aluminum heads. In fact, you can use cast iron guides or liners in virtually any application where bronze might be used. We also have cast iron guides for the 1993 and newer engines that have powder metal guides."

OVERSIZED VALVES


ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 01:29:38 AM »
Thanks a lot for the imput everyone.  Im bringing all my parts to a machine shop tomorrow, so i'll get back to you with more details on the head and everything done to the engine

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 07:11:42 PM »
Yeah, we'd like to know the outcome of the inspection the machine shop did, and what they are suggesting you do to fix the problem. 

ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 11:28:17 AM »
So you were right, those valve sleeves will have to be replaced...

The shop gave me an estimate for the block and heads.  total is like $2700.   At first, i was going to order my own master rebuild kit, but they can do it for me at about the same price.  I'm just going for a typical engine rebuild, trying to stay close to the original, not going for crazy performance or anything.  I told them I'd want them to put together the heads for me, along with installing the hard seats and cam bearings in the block etc. and i can do the rest of the assembly myself.

here's the break down:

Master Rebuild Kit - $760.00
- Pistons
- Moly rings
- rv cams and lifters
- Full gasket set
- Double roller timing
- Oil pump
- Brass freeze plugs
- Oil pump shaft
- Bronze guides for heads
- Hard exhaust seats
- Rod bolts & nuts
- Stainless valves
- Springs

Labor for block and heads - $1955.00

Block
- Thermal clean and shot peen
- Magnaflux
- Resurface block
- Bore (.060) & hone with torque plates
- Install hard seats
- R&R cam bearings
- R&R pistons and rods
- Line hone main bearing saddles
- Balance rotating assembly

Head
- Thermal clean and shot peen
- Magnaflux
-Resurface heads
- 3 angle valve job and set spring heights
- Recondition connecting rods
- Install valve guides and fit
- Clean mag. index grind crank

What do you guys think? Im gonna try to get back to them today so they can start on it.

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2008, 06:38:40 PM »
I have always been one to sit down with the builder and discuss each and everything that will be done, but I am wondering about this cost.  Have you checked into the price of a crate engine built the same? 

ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 01:03:52 AM »
here's the breakdown
thermal clean block & shot peen $75.00
bore & hone block with torque plates $250.00
install hard exhaust seats for unleaded gas $120.00
r&r cam bearings $68.00
thermal clean heads & shot peen $40.00
resurface heads $70.00
clean mag regrind crankshaft $200.00
3 angle valve job & set valve & spring heights $250.00
clean mag recon rods $120.00
install bronze guide liners & fit $144.00
magnaflux block $20.00
magnaflux heads $20.00
r&r pistons on rods $78.00
balance assembly $200.00
resurface block $120.00
line hone block $180.00

total is about $2000

I may be able to skip a step or two, like surfacing....but that doesnt really bring down the price much... I havent looked into a crate engine yet....going to do that now...or Do you think for now i can give them the go on at least the thermal clean and shot peen?

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 03:27:10 AM »
That's about what a stock crate engine will cost you I would think.  If you have them do your own, you will at least know what you have, and can come back to them with the warranty if anything goes wrong.  But again, the price seems kinda high.  You can get an OEM rebuilt engine for less than 1,500.  Here is only one example.
http://www.hiperformer.com/featured_engines/for_289lb.html

ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:31 AM »
Part of this restoration process was me wanting to rebuild the engine myself.  I'm going to see if the price can be negociated with the machine shop to somewhere around the $2000 range. 

That's the price of what the completed crate engine would be...including shipping...Due to financial reasons, I have a feeling the crate engine is going to be the solution

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 06:34:31 PM »
Hey, you have to budget these projects.  If you don't, you wind up with a 40K car that is only worth 12K.  Saving several hundred here and there is a good thing.  Good luck with it bro, and stop by often to let us know how your project is going. 
There are always other choices.  You could negotiate a deal with a guy advertising a hipo 302 on here for a starting price of $1,700. http://www.mustangv8.com/forum/parts-for-sale-or-trade/high-preformance-302-engine/msg4763/#msg4763

ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2008, 02:14:30 AM »
crap!  I may have deciphered my block and head wrong.  My coupe is a 67, but I think it's a 66 engine inside.  If that's the case, is it totally not worth the expensive rebuild anymore?

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2008, 11:17:39 AM »
With respect to the 'numbers' game, my 66 HP has a C5AE-6015-E casting number and a cast date in 1965. If your engine is original, it's casting would be the same, C5AE-6015-E, or C6OE-6015-C, both were castings were used in 1967. There are no small block engines, aka 289, with a 1967 casting number. To determine originality, look for the numbers that are cast into the block on the right rear where the starter bolts in. The cast date is in the format 6D21, year number, month letter - A=January, B=February, etc, and the day. There is also an engine assembly date stamped on the left front on a 'boss' next to the timing chain cover and distributor. You don't have a VIN stamped on your block.
Jim

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2008, 08:41:42 PM »
my block is a C60E, and the heads have stamped 6F29 and 6F30.  How can I verify the originality of this to the vehicle?

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2008, 11:55:32 PM »
With respect to the 'numbers' game, my 66 HP has a C5AE-6015-E casting number and a cast date in 1965. If your engine is original, it's casting would be the same, C5AE-6015-E, or C6OE-6015-C, both were castings were used in 1967. There are no small block engines, aka 289, with a 1967 casting number. To determine originality, look for the numbers that are cast into the block on the right rear where the starter bolts in. The cast date is in the format 6D21, year number, month letter - A=January, B=February, etc, and the day. There is also an engine assembly date stamped on the left front on a 'boss' next to the timing chain cover and distributor. You don't have a VIN stamped on your block.
Jim
You got some homework to do. The heads were cast in 1966 on June 29 and 30, near the end of 66 production but they could have been used on early 67. Your VIN number and/or scheduled build date is needed as a baseline to determine what the other dates should be.
Jim 

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 03:03:34 PM »
Yeah, as Jim alluded, there is no way to be for certain that 66 block is the original engine for your 67 289 or not.  Marti does not have the paperwork for the 65-66 models so you can't order a report.  All you can do is guesstimate.  If the build date of your 67 is in the Fall of 66, I would say that chances of that engine being the original one are very good.  So, to answer your question.  Yes it wil be worth the money to overhaul that one. 

ProjectAbby

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 03:35:27 PM »
the VIN stamp says it's a 28U.  The U is part of the 2nd year code, while the F on the heads indicate it was part of the first year...   I just wasn't sure if there was a way to precisely identify the engine to car.  This helps out a lot, thanks guys

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 04:11:46 PM »
If you are refering to the data plate on the driver's door, the 28U indicates a July 28, 1967, as a scheduled build date. This wold make you car a late 1967 model. That is the standard code Ford uses for a single year's build. The date code on the heads indicate a late 1966 build so I would have to say that is not the original engine. However, you have not given us the assembly date of the engine (see one of my previous posts for that stamp's location). You could have replacement heads on the original engine.
Jim

Soaring

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Re: Cylinder Heads: Crack around the valve guides
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 04:28:45 PM »
Hell, does it really matter?  It's a friggin' 289 that was put in all 64 1/2 until 1968.  You guys make too much of a fuss about exactly when was the engine built.  The 64 1/2 low compression D code was a dog, but it was still a 289.  All C, A and K codes were 289's.  Just differences in the carburation and internal differences as you went from C through K.  If that engine is indeed a 66, 67 or combination of the two years, yes, it is worth rebuilding it.  I guarantee you that nobody can prove it is not the original engine, since Marti himself cannot prove it. You don't plan on selling it in your lifetime do you? 

 

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