Topic: 429 over heating

[h70mach1]

I am new here but have read some questions before and seen some good answers to peoples questions so i thought i would try.   
   I have a 70 mach 1 that i installed a 1970 429 into, the problem is i tend to overheat in stop and go traffic on hot days (above 75 degrees outside). If i stay moving it runs about 190-195 with a 180 degree thermostat.
   I installed an aluminum radiator, water wetter, and have changed thermostats, 160, 180, 195.  the 180 seems the best.  the radiator is a stock size and does seem to help. I also installed two electric fans side by side.  Both 12" and they are pushers (no room in the engine bay to mount).
    The big questions i have are,                             1. Has anyone ever had this problem?
2. Any recomendations on good elec. fans?
    (was told this weekend that the ones i bought are junk fans and should be thrown away,  they are  perma-cool)
3. Any other good tricks or ideas that i might have missed?

    Any info or ideas would be appreciated (starting to hate the fact that i cant drive it as much as i want)     
                      thanks for reading
                                             Andy
                             

[Soaring]

Sorry it took so long to get back.  Here is a Mustang Monthly article on how to install a puller electric fan.  http://www.mustangmonthly.com/howto/mump_0705_electric_fan_installation/index.html
I know that big 429 is stuffed in there, but maybe this will work.  If not, then I would go with a 6 blade fan with a shroud.   Hell, with a 429 you aren't going to be worrying about gas mileage anyway.  I haven't heard any positive comments about push fans.  There is nothing better than the 70 MPH air to be used as the push, then the pull fan on the engine with the shroud to get the efficiency you need.  Now, are you sure that aluminum rad is clean?  If it is old, it could be clogged up with calcium deposits.  Only use distilled water.  You are right about that 180 thermostat being the best.   

[h70mach1]

thanks for answering,    yes the radiator is clean i just bought it this winter and just put it in with distilled water.. I wanted to use pullers unfortunatly no room, I even took my fans off today and tried again to find a way to use them as pullers.  I had a flex fan on there the only problem was no air flow at idle and i would get hot at shows on hot days.

[Soaring]

Take your radiator cap off and jack up the front of the car.  Turn the engine on and allow the temp to get up to operating temp.  Let the bubbles escape for a long time.  Keep adding a mixture of 50-50 fluid until the level remains at the top of the rad, then cap it.  That will burp your system.  Now make sure you have a 13 pound cap, and an overflow tank.  Since you can't fit a fan in front of the engine between it and the radiator, your only decision would be to move the radiator support forward.  Do you have a welder and know how to use it?   

[h70mach1]

thanks for the idea i am going to try that in a couple of days when i can really work on it.  ya i allready looked at the radiator cap a few times.  yes i do have a welder and know how to use it, just a little low on drive during the summer but a possibility for the winter

[h70mach1]

 soaring -   i fogot to add that i was going to check into the fuel mixture to see if maybe it was lean, i did check timing and that seemed good

[Soaring]

If the timing is too far advanced it will tend to overheat, but if you are not advanced too much, then that is not the problem. 

[h70mach1]

sorry its been a while, but I wanted to let you know what i found out.  I have replaced the two fans (perma-cool) i purchased first with ones (spal) i was refered to. my original fans were supposed to move 3000cfm @ 7 amps a piece and the new ones are rated at 1630cfm @20 amps a piece.  Was told by a few fan reps that industry standard is about 1000cfm per 10 amps otherwise motors are to weak and cant move enough air. new fans move almost twice as much air thru the radiator than the old ones. Spal actaully derates thier numbers and they said they will move close to 2000 cfm. the last thing i found was that the carb was running lean above 2000 rpms, i took that in and had it redone and it is smooth now. It was 85 gegrees outside on saturday here and it ran at 190 on the highway at 65 mph, i pulled off right to a stop light and it went up to 205, both fans came on and it was about a minute  before it was back at 190  Thanks for all the ideas and help,  hopefully my experieces will help someone else. 

[Soaring]

I'm glad you got her cooled down, and that the fans are working.  Man, that 429 will be singing your praises.   

[CrunchySkippy]

...the new ones are rated at 1630cfm @20 amps a piece. 

Yikes!  I didn't realize electric fans were that much of a current draw.  Have you upgraded your alternator?  (Weren't stock alternators ~60amps?)  If not, keep an eye on your charging system. 

I would guess that the fans are most likely to kick in when the engine is only idling (and the alternator isn't juicing optimally).  Nobody likes dead batteries...

-bill

[h70mach1]

bill,  yes i did just replace the alternator with a 100 amp, I like to take my wife and 15 month old son with me the car shows and i never would have heard the end of it the battery died. you are right they did come with 61 amp, i could not find a 100 amp stock that would fit so i ended up looking on ebay and found one for 65.00 plus shipping that would fit, plus it was chrome.      You do not have to buy fans with high amp draw but like i found out smaller amp motors dont move the air, but they do pull air from all sides of the radiator not thru (less resistance). The worst part about this is the cost of the fans were about the same, $110 a piece for the old ones and $125 a piece for the new ones.  Thanks for posting

[Soaring]

That's some damn good information H70.  I love it when a project comes together.  However, I have always heard that you want the fans to pull "through" the middle of the rad for optimum cooling, not around.  What say ye about that theory?

[h70mach1]

you are right  the two fans i have measure 13" across apiece for a total of 26" x 13" of coverage on the core.  the core measures 25.5" x 15.5".  i found out that if you are going to put electric fans on you want to cover as much space as you can and 70 percent is the least amount of the core you want to cover.  the old fans with the lower amps did not have the power to push alot of air thru the radiator core, instead what they did was push air across the face of the core with a little going thru.  the new ones push thru with just a little going across the face of the core (my fans are used as pushers). this winter i plan on removing the fans and sealing them to the radiator better so i get full flow thru the core. using fans as a puller is more efficient than using them as pushers (about 20 percent).  the 20 percent loss was explained to me like this, which would be easier pushing a string thru a radiator or pulling it?   kind of made sense to me.  hope this helps out 

[Q8_HATCH]

someone had put an electric puller fan in his mustang 67, looks very thin

http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/tech-exchange/473150-our-number-1-fan.html

[Soaring]

I've heard of that brand.  Will it fit?  It should.  OK, so you are still pushing.  Maybe this winter you can move that rad support forward a tad to get some "pullers" in there.  But, it sounds like you pretty much have it cooling OK. 

[Lovebee06]

Overheating of an economy occurs when its productive capacity is unable to keep pace with growing aggregate demand.



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Basement dehumidifier

[ibox]

Hi

I know this is an old thread, bu since I found it very usefull, and maybe I can get some more info from it. I wantd to keep it alive Also i live in norway so english is not my first language, so have that inmind when trying to understand my "nors english"

I have the exact same problem, a 1970 mach 1 with a 429 (460 really). No space for a puller. However I'm now thinking of trying to move the radiator forward, but it will seriously alter the front of the engine compartment. I have only one pusher.
At idling it's ok, but soon as you step on the pedle it overheats and it's hard to get it cool again. But in general when you drive the car down the road, fans are not ment to cool the engine. I guess the pusher will block the air.

anyway, i was intrested in how you put 2 fans in there, I cant see that there is space for it. Atleast if you want the fans to be snugly fitt towards the radiator. any pictures?

I've also heard that to much timing advance could be a problem, but how much should it be, I have played with it from 5-20 degrees. I have it set at 10 now. It should be mentioned that I have a MSD ignition, maybe the curve is to high or something.

I'll go and try and "burp" the engine now... i've always had a feeling i wasnt able to bleed it good enough. (there should have been a bleed screw )

[ibox]

Just wanted to let you know of my progress.

I burped the engine, I'm not sure this worked or not. But maybe. In my mustang the 429 sits a bit high (because it has to). Soo it's very possible that this is a good trick.

I advansed the timing to about 8 degrees, i had it lower. Then i got a better idle and could turn down the idle adjustment of the carb. Maybe i'll go even higher later.

Finaly I took a leep of fate like mentioned in this thread and removed the pusher fan, running with no fan.

I tok a 30 min drive and no overheating, running aroud 200-220 i estimate. This was what the termocap on the radiator showed. The diale in the car was pointing straight down, so i'm a very happy camper now. I can start thinking about fine tuning with different temorstats now

Next step would be to move the radiator half inch or as much as I can to fit a fixed machanical fan in there. A flex balde maybe. I have half inch room from the waterpump to the radiator. But I belive I can modify the radiator suport enough to get the room.

For refferance to other readers, here is my setup.

1970 Mach 1
.030 bored 460
Edelbrok preformer RPM setup (cam, intake, carb)
MSD inition

Thank you very much for this thread.